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Fantasy » alt.fan.pratchett » [I] DEATH dreams
[I] DEATH dreams [message #280421] Mi, 07 Juni 2006 15:58
naomi  
I thought about putting in the other thread, but I'm too lazy to find a
spot to put it.

Last Saturday night I had the same dream 3 times that I remember.

I was walking in a procession of people through a huge graveyard, it
reminded me of an old cemetery by the ornamentation on the graves.
Anyway I'm in this calm orderly procession, I don't remember if we wore
robes but I think we might. I remember this personal sense of detachment
and calm. We finally got to the end of the graveyard and crossed a
river, I can't remember if we waded or went by boat or if it was
different in each dream. In one of the dreams I was on my own with
strangers, in another I had family members with me. When we got to the
other side there was just this huge field with a lot of people standing
silently. Then I woke up. I was woken twice by my kids in the night but
just had the dream again. It was all in Black and white and I usually
dream color. I wasn't scared at all even when I woke up.

Then...

In the morning my husband told me he'd had a really worrying dream that
we were walking along some cliffs above a beach when something started
chasing us. Apparently i got really scared and wanted to jump down into
the water and swim away. He could see that there was only beach and
rocks under the cliff and tried to warn me, but for some reason I still
jumped.

After he told me that I got a bit worried and told him what I'd dreamed.

So what do you think? Should I be extra careful for the next while?

The next night I had a great dream about visiting a house in nsw that my
grandpa built and where close family friends lived for a while. I
dreamed that my hubby and kids and I were holidaying with them for a while.

Naomi
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #280432 ] Mi, 07 Juni 2006 16:35
PeterH  
It all started on Wed, 07 Jun 2006 13:58:52 +0000, when naomi wrote:

> In the morning my husband told me he'd had a really worrying dream that we
> were walking along some cliffs above a beach when something started
> chasing us. Apparently i got really scared and wanted to jump down into
> the water and swim away. He could see that there was only beach and rocks
> under the cliff and tried to warn me, but for some reason I still jumped.
>
> After he told me that I got a bit worried and told him what I'd dreamed.
>
> So what do you think? Should I be extra careful for the next while?

My girlfriend apparently has nightmares up to four times a week in which
friends and family get killed - usually shot. None of them have been shot
in real life though.

On Sunday she told me she'd dreamed of an exceedingly vicious hurricane,
through which I had calmly walked without even suffering windswept hair.

As far as I'm concerned, they're just dreams. But I'll make a deal with
you: you stay away from cliffs and I'll stay away from gnus.


...PeterH
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #280547 ] Mi, 07 Juni 2006 22:47
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #280624 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 07:25
dicconf  
In article <4486db9b$1 [at] news.comindico.com.au>,
naomi <kittenkat [at] dodo.com.au> wrote:
>I thought about putting in the other thread, but I'm too lazy to find a
>spot to put it.
>
>Last Saturday night I had the same dream 3 times that I remember.
>
>I was walking in a procession of people through a huge graveyard, it
>reminded me of an old cemetery by the ornamentation on the graves.
>Anyway I'm in this calm orderly procession, I don't remember if we wore
>robes but I think we might. I remember this personal sense of detachment
>and calm.
<snip>
>I wasn't scared at all even when I woke up.

Sometimes I have dreams that I think are a way my subconscious mind tests
my reaction to situations.

>Then...
>
>In the morning my husband told me he'd had a really worrying dream that
>we were walking along some cliffs above a beach when something started
>chasing us. Apparently i got really scared and wanted to jump down into
>the water and swim away. He could see that there was only beach and
>rocks under the cliff and tried to warn me, but for some reason I still
>jumped.
>
>After he told me that I got a bit worried and told him what I'd dreamed.
>
>So what do you think? Should I be extra careful for the next while?

I'd say that being cautious about cliffs is pretty good advice regardless.
But remember, that was _his_ dream, not yours.

=Tamar
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #280697 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 15:33
April Goodwin-Smith  
"naomi" wrote ...
> Last Saturday night I had the same dream 3 times that I remember.
<snip scary dream details>
> So what do you think? Should I be extra careful for the next while?
>

I just wanted to let you know that I have had both a dream of
being killed and a dream of being dead - and I'm still here.

The first one was 30 years ago, and I dreamt I was stabbed in
the chest. There was no pain, but only the sensation of being
struck very hard, and of the knife piercing my breast bone
(kinda like fingernails on a blackboard, but inside - just as
cringe-inducing).

The second was about 15 years ago, and I dreamt that I had
gone to a hospice to die, and that I did indeed die - and then
I floated around not knowing what to do next. When I couldn't
figure out what to do next, I tried to go back to my body, but
the eyeballs were already manky, so that didn't work.[1]

On the other hand, about 25 years ago I kept having dreams
that I was killing all my brothers and sisters (of which in RL
I have none), and blaming other people for the murders.

So, not only have I not died, but I have also not committed
murder. Therefore: yes, be careful, but don't be freaked out.

April.

[1] - later, in retrospect, all these dreams made sense as
metaphors for life events that were taking place at the time,
but I don't know what happened to the spirit me when the
return to the corpse thing didn't work out.[2]
[2] - I can't remember, but I must have read Reaper Man
before this dream.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #280717 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 16:49
Torak  
April Goodwin-Smith wrote:
> "naomi" wrote ...
>
>>Last Saturday night I had the same dream 3 times that I remember.
>
> <snip scary dream details>
>
>>So what do you think? Should I be extra careful for the next while?
>>
>
>
> I just wanted to let you know that I have had both a dream of
> being killed and a dream of being dead - and I'm still here.

Oooh, I had a strange one a while ago. In fact, I've had (or, I suppose
more accurately, *remembered having*) more dreams in the last two or
three years than in the previous two decades. In the last few years, I'm
aware of having had at least four or five dreams... I don't usually
notice them at all. Anyway, when I do remember them I make a point of
writing them down - or at least what I remember of them. To quote my
description of the most memorable one, a year or two ago (written at the
time, and could really do with some editing):

"More recently, I dreamed that I had friends over, and their boyfriends
arrived to take them away. I still wanted to talk them, so I followed
them to the tram stop (which, as far as I know, doesn’t exist) and for
some reason got on the tram with them. At some point they got off the
tram without me noticing, and the tram continued across the border into
Italy (yes, from Belgium). The line went straight through a fire
station, where a tractor loader with some sort of pincer arrangement had
to get out of the way, and along to the terminus.

"I got off the tram to find myself in a large open square, where some
form of celebration was under way. I moved along to the end stop to wait
for the tram, but for some reason I first went up on a hill to watch. I
checked my ten-card, and found the last line stamped “déjà á l’árrêt”.

"Just as I noticed what I thought was a drunk and his wife behind me –
he was immobile, his eyes invisible in the deep shadows of his eye
sockets, and so on – my Dad turned up and the square was suddenly empty.

"We wandered back to the tram stop, where for some strange reason a
madman was locked in some sort of booth, with very unsettling
gimlet-like eyes, and Dad decided to go into the public convenience
before leaving.

"He walked in, and the drunk started to follow him, reaching into his
pocket. I bellowed “Dad! Drunk incoming!” and the drunk stormed out,
clutching something. I grabbed whatever lay closest to hand and started
yelling for the police, and the drunk pulled a revolver from his belt –
a Smith & Wesson, judging by the design – and fired a round into the air.

"I started running towards the police station, and realised that what I
was holding was a rope. In the noose at the end was the first drunk, the
one with the sunken eyes. He looked exactly the same as before, and I
realised that he’d been dead all along. I can’t remember anything after
that, except that the tram turned up sooner or later.

"One of the most disconcerting things – well, except from the lunatic’s
eyes and the whole dead-bloke-on-a-string thing – was the feeling that
I’d been there before. I recognised the place, I knew that if I
continued up that road I’d come to a cable car with oval, chromed cars
leading up to an observatory, and so on. I recognised the route through
the fire station, I recognised the loop at the terminus…

"It was all very disconcerting, but then I’ve been getting a sensation
of déjà vu quite a lot these days, in real life as well. The other day I
was helping Mamma with her computer, and I recognised the problem – I’d
helped her with it before, I was sure of it. Suddenly I knew what was
going to appear on the TV as I worked and sure enough, there it was. A
very odd sensation…"


If anyone's got any insights on what the whole thing could mean, I'd
really appreciate any suggestions. I haven't a clue. But theories would
probably be best by email, I'd rather not have them spouted all over
Usenet if they're anywhere near correct... Got a few more dreams as well
that I'd like to figure out, so if anyone wants to take a stab at them,
drop me a mail.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #280732 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 17:30
Sanity  
naomi wrote:

> So what do you think? Should I be extra careful for the next while?

Of course not. They were dreams.

--
TTFN, | AFPChess, Planet AFP, L-Files & more:
| http://www.affordable-prawns.co.uk/
| Featuring Planet AFP, a collection of afpers' blogs!
Michel AKA Sanity | Jabber IM: michel [at] jabber.xs4all.nl
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #280782 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 19:21
Aggie Angst  
"naomi" <kittenkat [at] dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:4486db9b$1 [at] news.comindico.com.au...
>I thought about putting in the other thread, but I'm too lazy to find a
>spot to put it.
>
> Last Saturday night I had the same dream 3 times that I remember.
>
> I was walking in a procession of people through a huge graveyard, it
> reminded me of an old cemetery by the ornamentation on the graves. Anyway
> I'm in this calm orderly procession, I don't remember if we wore robes but
> I think we might. I remember this personal sense of detachment and calm.
> We finally got to the end of the graveyard and crossed a river, I can't
> remember if we waded or went by boat or if it was different in each dream.
> In one of the dreams I was on my own with strangers, in another I had
> family members with me. When we got to the other side there was just this
> huge field with a lot of people standing silently. Then I woke up. I was
> woken twice by my kids in the night but just had the dream again. It was
> all in Black and white and I usually dream color. I wasn't scared at all
> even when I woke up.
>
> Then...
>
> In the morning my husband told me he'd had a really worrying dream that we
> were walking along some cliffs above a beach when something started
> chasing us. Apparently i got really scared and wanted to jump down into
> the water and swim away. He could see that there was only beach and rocks
> under the cliff and tried to warn me, but for some reason I still jumped.
>
> After he told me that I got a bit worried and told him what I'd dreamed.
>
> So what do you think? Should I be extra careful for the next while?
>
> The next night I had a great dream about visiting a house in nsw that my
> grandpa built and where close family friends lived for a while. I dreamed
> that my hubby and kids and I were holidaying with them for a while.
>
> Naomi

I often wonder what dreams really are and if they are just our psyches
working out what's on our minds or a combination of things. Sometimes they
feel like communication from the living or dead, or some sort of an ethereal
connection with another person. Sometimes the seem full of ominous portent.
Then there's the matter of your subconscious trying to get at you.
Sometimes they're just nonsense so it's hard to figure out if there's a
message there or not. Not too long ago I dreamed I was in a room full of
albino corn snakes. I wasn't worried because I don't fear snakes
particularly, but I knew a copperhead snake was also in the room pretending
to be a corn snake and I had to watch out for the viper in the bunch.
Would you say there's a message there? I sure thought so.

You have some recognizable symbols in your dream such as crossing the river
after you leave the graveyard. The good part of this is that everyone was
calm and not unhappy. You were with family and strangers in a different
land. It certainly was a death dream, but I don't think a negative one. It
didn't inspire fear or sadness. Maybe that's what your unconscious mind
believes death will be like. Maybe it's something you should remember when
you lose someone in life as we all eventually do. You'll know they've
crossed the river into a different place. Possibly had you slept longer,
you would have found that people didn't stand around forever, but went off
to do other things. ;)

Aggie
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #280881 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 23:24
Steve Rogers  
"Aggie Angst" <aggieangst [at] myinvalidway.com> wrote in message
news:y0Zhg.3193$o4.1475 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
<snip>
>
> I often wonder what dreams really are and if they are just our psyches
> working out what's on our minds or a combination of things. Sometimes
> they feel like communication from the living or dead, or some sort of
> an ethereal connection with another person. Sometimes the seem full
> of ominous portent. Then there's the matter of your subconscious
> trying to get at you.

You could say that dreams are the brain's way of dealing with everything
that has happened during the day and also a time when the subconcious
and concious mind do battle for control if, for example, you make a
concious decision to change a deeply embedded component of your self
image. But most often they are a release from the self impsed
strictures and a chance for a day's events to be analysed and sorted out
hence why it is thought that dreams are disjointed at times as the brain
flits from item to item. Of course it could all be just random firings
of neurons in those particular areas of the brain that deal with imigery
as you sleep.

> Sometimes they're just nonsense so it's hard to figure out if there's
> a message there or not. Not too long ago I dreamed I was in a room
> full of albino corn snakes. I wasn't worried because I don't fear
> snakes particularly, but I knew a copperhead snake was also in the
> room pretending to be a corn snake and I had to watch out for the
> viper in the bunch. Would you say there's a message there? I sure
> thought so.

A similar dream would be one of a barrel full of apples from which to
eat but knowing also that there is one wormy one somewhere in amongst
them. A simple set of images that suggest whilst all is good with the
world there is the chance that it won't be for long so warned but enjoy
it whilst you can. If you want, the mind saying all is good so lets
keep it this way.

Sometimes I wish I hadn't read so many books on so many different
subjects when I was younger lol ;-)

Steve
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #280948 ] Fr, 09 Juni 2006 03:04
Aggie Angst  
"Steve Rogers" <steve [at] soapietrekkers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e6a4hk$sd3$1$830fa7a5 [at] news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Aggie Angst" <aggieangst [at] myinvalidway.com> wrote in message
> news:y0Zhg.3193$o4.1475 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
> <snip>
>>
>> I often wonder what dreams really are and if they are just our psyches
>> working out what's on our minds or a combination of things. Sometimes
>> they feel like communication from the living or dead, or some sort of an
>> ethereal connection with another person. Sometimes the seem full of
>> ominous portent. Then there's the matter of your subconscious trying to
>> get at you.
>
> You could say that dreams are the brain's way of dealing with everything
> that has happened during the day and also a time when the subconcious and
> concious mind do battle for control if, for example, you make a concious
> decision to change a deeply embedded component of your self image. But
> most often they are a release from the self impsed strictures and a chance
> for a day's events to be analysed and sorted out hence why it is thought
> that dreams are disjointed at times as the brain flits from item to item.
> Of course it could all be just random firings of neurons in those
> particular areas of the brain that deal with imigery as you sleep.
>
>> Sometimes they're just nonsense so it's hard to figure out if there's a
>> message there or not. Not too long ago I dreamed I was in a room full
>> of albino corn snakes. I wasn't worried because I don't fear snakes
>> particularly, but I knew a copperhead snake was also in the room
>> pretending to be a corn snake and I had to watch out for the viper in the
>> bunch. Would you say there's a message there? I sure thought so.
>
> A similar dream would be one of a barrel full of apples from which to eat
> but knowing also that there is one wormy one somewhere in amongst them. A
> simple set of images that suggest whilst all is good with the world there
> is the chance that it won't be for long so warned but enjoy it whilst you
> can. If you want, the mind saying all is good so lets keep it this way.
>
> Sometimes I wish I hadn't read so many books on so many different subjects
> when I was younger lol ;-)
>
> Steve

Well I reckon at some time or other I've heard all the logical explanations,
I'm just not sure if I always believe what's reasonable or rational. Sort
of takes the fun out of it. ;) I mean sure it could be my uber self sending
me messages, but isn't more fun if it's dear departed Aunt Clara? :)
Seriously though, I have to admit I think there's more to it than
psychologist types have determined.

Aggie
Re: DEATH dreams [message #286493 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 04:07
treesy2  
Steve Rogers wrote:
> "Aggie Angst" <aggieangst [at] myinvalidway.com> wrote in message
> news:y0Zhg.3193$o4.1475 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > I often wonder what dreams really are and if they are just our psyches
> > working out what's on our minds or a combination of things. Sometimes
> > they feel like communication from the living or dead, or some sort of
> > an ethereal connection with another person. Sometimes the seem full
> > of ominous portent. Then there's the matter of your subconscious
> > trying to get at you.
>
> You could say that dreams are the brain's way of dealing with everything
> that has happened during the day and also a time when the subconcious
> and concious mind do battle for control if, for example, you make a
> concious decision to change a deeply embedded component of your self
> image. But most often they are a release from the self impsed
> strictures and a chance for a day's events to be analysed and sorted out
> hence why it is thought that dreams are disjointed at times as the brain
> flits from item to item. Of course it could all be just random firings
> of neurons in those particular areas of the brain that deal with imigery
> as you sleep.
>
Try this dream. It's the only dream I can remember. It's a death dream,
but it happened when I was 5. 12 years later I can still remember it
vividly, probably for it's humour value.

This happened while I was living in the semi-mafia controlled town of
Griffith in NSW. My dream was that I was running to everywhere I knew
trying to find my friends, family, pretty much anyone. but they were
"gone" (I hadn't learned about death at the time, or if I had it must
have been on the lines of "Granny's gone away"), and I always, when
finding the people "gone" would notice someone behind me wearing dark
clothes, with shadows covering his face.

After what seemed like hours of running around and finding no-one, I
felt the need to relieve myself. being an extremely realistic dream I
didn't realise I WAS dreaming. Being near my house I tried to get in
but it was locked. This was also strange because I'd started in there,
but anyway, I decided to behind our shed. After that I woke up to find
that it was just a dream, although, the relieving was not. Needless to
say I didn't get back to sleep. Not until I'd gotten my sheets changed
anyway.
>
> Sometimes I wish I hadn't read so many books on so many different
> subjects when I was younger lol ;-)

Nonsense. I read everything, I even read a law dictionary out of
desperation. I didn't remember any of it, but the point is the reading
itself. That's my A$ 0.02 anyway.

treesy
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286549 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 11:17
eero.suoranta  
April Goodwin-Smith wrote:

> On the other hand, about 25 years ago I kept having dreams
> that I was killing all my brothers and sisters (of which in RL
> I have none), and blaming other people for the murders.

<spooky voice>

"You *had*... but they were all killed... by YOU!"

<spooky voice ends>
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286551 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 11:21
eero.suoranta  
naomi kirjoitti:

> I thought about putting in the other thread, but I'm too lazy to find a
> spot to put it.
>
> Last Saturday night I had the same dream 3 times that I remember.

<snip dreams>

> So what do you think? Should I be extra careful for the next while?
>
> The next night I had a great dream about visiting a house in nsw that my
> grandpa built and where close family friends lived for a while. I
> dreamed that my hubby and kids and I were holidaying with them for a while.

To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, "sometimes a dream is just a dream."
Also, the last one points to deep childhood traumas caused by your
parents not giving you that pink unicycle.
Re: DEATH dreams [message #286554 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 11:46
Steve Rogers  
"treesy" <treesy2 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149991649.027285.38020 [at] f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Steve Rogers wrote:
>> "Aggie Angst" <aggieangst [at] myinvalidway.com> wrote in message
>> news:y0Zhg.3193$o4.1475 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> <snip>
>> >
>> > I often wonder what dreams really are and if they are just our
>> > psyches
>> > working out what's on our minds or a combination of things.
>> > Sometimes
>> > they feel like communication from the living or dead, or some sort
>> > of
>> > an ethereal connection with another person. Sometimes the seem
>> > full
>> > of ominous portent. Then there's the matter of your subconscious
>> > trying to get at you.
>>
>> You could say that dreams are the brain's way of dealing with
>> everything
>> that has happened during the day and also a time when the subconcious
>> and concious mind do battle for control if, for example, you make a
>> concious decision to change a deeply embedded component of your self
>> image. But most often they are a release from the self impsed
>> strictures and a chance for a day's events to be analysed and sorted
>> out
>> hence why it is thought that dreams are disjointed at times as the
>> brain
>> flits from item to item. Of course it could all be just random
>> firings
>> of neurons in those particular areas of the brain that deal with
>> imigery
>> as you sleep.
>>
> Try this dream. It's the only dream I can remember. It's a death
> dream,
> but it happened when I was 5. 12 years later I can still remember it
> vividly, probably for it's humour value.
>
> This happened while I was living in the semi-mafia controlled town of
> Griffith in NSW. My dream was that I was running to everywhere I knew
> trying to find my friends, family, pretty much anyone. but they were
> "gone" (I hadn't learned about death at the time, or if I had it must
> have been on the lines of "Granny's gone away"), and I always, when
> finding the people "gone" would notice someone behind me wearing dark
> clothes, with shadows covering his face.

Pretty standard stuff as far as childhood dreams go, an anxiety dream
that shows a burgeoning awareness that there is more going on than you
know about and that you have to start doing things for yourself.

> After what seemed like hours of running around and finding no-one, I
> felt the need to relieve myself. being an extremely realistic dream I
> didn't realise I WAS dreaming. Being near my house I tried to get in
> but it was locked. This was also strange because I'd started in there,
> but anyway, I decided to behind our shed. After that I woke up to find
> that it was just a dream, although, the relieving was not. Needless to
> say I didn't get back to sleep. Not until I'd gotten my sheets changed
> anyway.

And the trigger or source of the anxiety is revealed.

>>
>> Sometimes I wish I hadn't read so many books on so many different
>> subjects when I was younger lol ;-)
>
> Nonsense. I read everything, I even read a law dictionary out of
> desperation. I didn't remember any of it, but the point is the reading
> itself. That's my A$ 0.02 anyway.
>

Oh don't, I once read most of the Encyclopaedia Britannica when I was
stuck home in bed ill and couldn't get my normal daily fix of 4 novels
and/or reference books on topics I came across in the novels. I was one
of those kids that has read all and understood most of the assigned
school text books by the time the first week of a new year/term has gone
by. You can guess the mis-spelled nickname I ended up with given the
surname.

Now I'm older, whilst all the info I absorbed when I was younger was
pretty useless back then, it has certainly come in handy at times,
especially some of the more obscure or off beat things I picked up, it
is surprising what you remember at times or what sparks that memory.

Steve
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286556 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 12:08
alec  
In article <1150017698.213323.6220 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
eero.suoranta [at] jtoy.inet.fi says...

> To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, "sometimes a dream is just a dream."

The only details I can remeber about last night's dream was pigs and
giraffes climbing trees. The giraffes were quite good at it, but the
pigs ended up getting stuck hanging under a branch by all four trotters.

What does that say about my past and/or future?
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286560 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 13:04
Flesh-eating Dragon  
treesy wrote:

> it happened when I was 5. [...] I hadn't learned about death at the
> time, or if I had it must have been on the lines of "Granny's gone
> away")

Well, sadly, the above does _not_ help me to feel respectful of your
parents. Being at the "granny's gone away" level at the age of five is
sure as hell _not_ a typical childhood, even in this artificial modern
society of ours. Grrr.

Adrian.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286561 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 13:11
Flesh-eating Dragon  
Alec Cawley wrote:

> The only details I can remeber about last night's dream was pigs and
> giraffes climbing trees. The giraffes were quite good at it, but the
> pigs ended up getting stuck hanging under a branch by all four trotters.
>
> What does that say about my past and/or future?

Girraffes and pigs represent two different strategies for getting
where you want to go in life, achieving your goals and such, and the
giraffe strategy is the one that works for you.

Adrian.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286588 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 14:53
Bluebottle  
In article <MPG.1ef5fbdeabf93b77989cd2 [at] news.individual.net>,
alec [at] spamspam.co.uk says...
> In article <1150017698.213323.6220 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> eero.suoranta [at] jtoy.inet.fi says...
>
> > To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, "sometimes a dream is just a dream."
>
> The only details I can remeber about last night's dream was pigs and
> giraffes climbing trees. The giraffes were quite good at it, but the
> pigs ended up getting stuck hanging under a branch by all four trotters.
>
> What does that say about my past and/or future?

You have high hopes for a bacon sandwich?


Julie
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286599 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 17:00
exquisite witch peach  
8'FED wrote:
> treesy wrote:
>
>
>>it happened when I was 5. [...] I hadn't learned about death at the
>>time, or if I had it must have been on the lines of "Granny's gone
>>away")
>
>
> Well, sadly, the above does _not_ help me to feel respectful of your
> parents. Being at the "granny's gone away" level at the age of five is
> sure as hell _not_ a typical childhood, even in this artificial modern
> society of ours. Grrr.
>
> Adrian.
>
>


Honestly Adrian, I have no idea of your meaning there.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286619 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 18:40
Arthur Hagen  
8'FED <dragon [at] netyp.com.au> wrote:
> treesy wrote:
>
>> it happened when I was 5. [...] I hadn't learned about death at the
>> time, or if I had it must have been on the lines of "Granny's gone
>> away")
>
> Well, sadly, the above does _not_ help me to feel respectful of your
> parents. Being at the "granny's gone away" level at the age of five is
> sure as hell _not_ a typical childhood, even in this artificial modern
> society of ours. Grrr.

How else do you explain death to a five year old, without presupposing they
know what "death" means?

"Granny is broken and can't be fixed; she stopped moving and talking, and
will never do so again. To prevent her from rotting and stinking up the
place like that glass of milk you hid behind the couch, she's been placed in
a box underground. If you see mom and auntie fight, it's an old ritual
called 'inheritance', which is grown-up fighting over her things."

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286646 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 20:02
Flesh-eating Dragon  
peachy ashie passion wrote:
> 8'FED wrote:
>> treesy wrote:

>>>it happened when I was 5. [...] I hadn't learned about death at the
>>>time, or if I had it must have been on the lines of "Granny's gone
>>>away")
>>
>> Well, sadly, the above does _not_ help me to feel respectful of your
>> parents. Being at the "granny's gone away" level at the age of five is
>> sure as hell _not_ a typical childhood, even in this artificial modern
>> society of ours. Grrr.
>
> Honestly Adrian, I have no idea of your meaning there.

That responsible parents teach their children about death ... that
you're born, live, and die, and it doesn't last forever ... before
those children are five years old. Preschoolers will have plenty of
misconceptions of course, but by that age children should at least
know that death is permanent and that it comes to everyone.

Common ways to educate young children about death (assuming that an
actual death of a friend or relative doesn't conveniently coincide
with the right point in the child's education) include answering
the child's questions about dead animals and explaining that people
die too, and visiting cemeteries and explaining what the headstones
mean.

Adrian.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286651 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 20:14
Steve Rogers  
"8'FED" <dragon [at] netyp.com.au> wrote in message
news:e6hlor$2h66$1 [at] mud.stack.nl...
> peachy ashie passion wrote:
>> 8'FED wrote:
>>> treesy wrote:
>
>>>>it happened when I was 5. [...] I hadn't learned about death at the
>>>>time, or if I had it must have been on the lines of "Granny's gone
>>>>away")
>>>
>>> Well, sadly, the above does _not_ help me to feel respectful of your
>>> parents. Being at the "granny's gone away" level at the age of five
>>> is
>>> sure as hell _not_ a typical childhood, even in this artificial
>>> modern
>>> society of ours. Grrr.
>>
>> Honestly Adrian, I have no idea of your meaning there.
>
> That responsible parents teach their children about death ... that
> you're born, live, and die, and it doesn't last forever ... before
> those children are five years old. Preschoolers will have plenty of
> misconceptions of course, but by that age children should at least
> know that death is permanent and that it comes to everyone.
>
> Common ways to educate young children about death (assuming that an
> actual death of a friend or relative doesn't conveniently coincide
> with the right point in the child's education) include answering
> the child's questions about dead animals and explaining that people
> die too, and visiting cemeteries and explaining what the headstones
> mean.
>

Brings to mind Red Dwarf and Lister's tale of when his father died.

Steve
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286653 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 20:15
Steve Rogers  
"Arthur Hagen" <art [at] broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:e6hh15$oer$1 [at] tree.broomstick.com...
> 8'FED <dragon [at] netyp.com.au> wrote:
>> treesy wrote:
>>
>>> it happened when I was 5. [...] I hadn't learned about death at the
>>> time, or if I had it must have been on the lines of "Granny's gone
>>> away")
>>
>> Well, sadly, the above does _not_ help me to feel respectful of your
>> parents. Being at the "granny's gone away" level at the age of five
>> is
>> sure as hell _not_ a typical childhood, even in this artificial
>> modern
>> society of ours. Grrr.
>
> How else do you explain death to a five year old, without presupposing
> they know what "death" means?
>
> "Granny is broken and can't be fixed; she stopped moving and talking,
> and will never do so again. To prevent her from rotting and stinking
> up the place like that glass of milk you hid behind the couch, she's
> been placed in a box underground. If you see mom and auntie fight,
> it's an old ritual called 'inheritance', which is grown-up fighting
> over her things."
>

ROFL :-)

Steve
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286656 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 20:21
Arthur Hagen  
8'FED <dragon [at] netyp.com.au> wrote:
>
> Common ways to educate young children about death (assuming that an
> actual death of a friend or relative doesn't conveniently coincide
> with the right point in the child's education) include answering
> the child's questions about dead animals and explaining that people
> die too, and visiting cemeteries and explaining what the headstones
> mean.

And, of course, buying pets. I think pterry even wrote a poem about it.

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286683 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 21:25
Torak  
8'FED wrote:
> treesy wrote:
>
>
>>it happened when I was 5. [...] I hadn't learned about death at the
>>time, or if I had it must have been on the lines of "Granny's gone
>>away")
>
>
> Well, sadly, the above does _not_ help me to feel respectful of your
> parents. Being at the "granny's gone away" level at the age of five is
> sure as hell _not_ a typical childhood, even in this artificial modern
> society of ours. Grrr.

When I was six I attended my (maternal) grandad's funeral. Well, the
service and reception, anyway; we kids were dispatched to buy sweets
with one of Mamma's friends during the actual interrment (spelling?).
But still, we all knew exactly what was going on.

Now, my Aunt and Uncle, on the other hand, actually *did* move to a farm
in Cornwall. They have pigs, and make their own bacon. Which is nice.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286707 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 22:05
Brenda  
Torak said:

> Now, my Aunt and Uncle, on the other hand, actually *did* move to a farm
> in Cornwall. They have pigs, and make their own bacon. Which is nice.

What's the point of keeping pigs, if they still have to make their own
bacon?


--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286710 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 22:06
Torak  
Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Torak said:
>
>
>>Now, my Aunt and Uncle, on the other hand, actually *did* move to a farm
>>in Cornwall. They have pigs, and make their own bacon. Which is nice.
>
>
> What's the point of keeping pigs, if they still have to make their own
> bacon?

They remove it from the pigs first.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286712 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 22:10
Rocky Frisco  
8'FED wrote:

> peachy ashie passion wrote:
>
>>8'FED wrote:
>>
>>>treesy wrote:
>
>
>>>>it happened when I was 5. [...] I hadn't learned about death at the
>>>>time, or if I had it must have been on the lines of "Granny's gone
>>>>away")
>>>
>>>Well, sadly, the above does _not_ help me to feel respectful of your
>>>parents. Being at the "granny's gone away" level at the age of five is
>>>sure as hell _not_ a typical childhood, even in this artificial modern
>>>society of ours. Grrr.
>>
>> Honestly Adrian, I have no idea of your meaning there.
>
>
> That responsible parents teach their children about death ... that
> you're born, live, and die, and it doesn't last forever ... before
> those children are five years old. Preschoolers will have plenty of
> misconceptions of course, but by that age children should at least
> know that death is permanent and that it comes to everyone.

Maybe explain that nobody really knows that, though. Death may be
permanent as seen by witnesses. but nobody really knows what it's like
for the one who dies (except me, by definition, of course). ;)

> Common ways to educate young children about death (assuming that an
> actual death of a friend or relative doesn't conveniently coincide
> with the right point in the child's education) include answering
> the child's questions about dead animals and explaining that people
> die too, and visiting cemeteries and explaining what the headstones
> mean.

I was once visiting some friends up in the mountains. They had been to
Grandpa's funeral. The little girl, around 6 years old, asked, "Where's
Grandpa now?"

The little boy, around age 8, said, "Now he's everywhere."

Good enough for me.

-Rocky
--
O'Toole's Corollary: Murphy was an optimist.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286754 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 23:54
exquisite witch peach  
8'FED wrote:

> peachy ashie passion wrote:
>
>>8'FED wrote:
>>
>>>treesy wrote:
>
>
>>>>it happened when I was 5. [...] I hadn't learned about death at the
>>>>time, or if I had it must have been on the lines of "Granny's gone
>>>>away")
>>>
>>>Well, sadly, the above does _not_ help me to feel respectful of your
>>>parents. Being at the "granny's gone away" level at the age of five is
>>>sure as hell _not_ a typical childhood, even in this artificial modern
>>>society of ours. Grrr.
>>
>> Honestly Adrian, I have no idea of your meaning there.
>
>
> That responsible parents teach their children about death ... that
> you're born, live, and die, and it doesn't last forever ... before
> those children are five years old. Preschoolers will have plenty of
> misconceptions of course, but by that age children should at least
> know that death is permanent and that it comes to everyone.
>
> Common ways to educate young children about death (assuming that an
> actual death of a friend or relative doesn't conveniently coincide
> with the right point in the child's education) include answering
> the child's questions about dead animals and explaining that people
> die too, and visiting cemeteries and explaining what the headstones
> mean.
>
> Adrian.
>
>

ahhh. I now at least understand your meaning.

Thank you for elaborating.

I disagree with your basic premise, as most preschoolers lack the
developmental capacity to understand that death is permanent, regardless
of what parents say.

That said, because of this, parents should take great care in not
making misleading statements or using "sleeping" as a euphemism.

But still, they just aren't going to get it.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286764 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 00:06
Stacie Hanes  
peachy ashie passion wrote:

<explaining death to children>

> I disagree with your basic premise, as most preschoolers lack the
> developmental capacity to understand that death is permanent,
> regardless of what parents say.

Right. As I have said before, "true" understanding of the permanence of
death, at the gut level, doesn't hit until the end of adolescence. Roughly
speaking.

I'm not saying that a 13-year-old doesn't understand death, that refers more
to a kid's own mortality, just saying.

> That said, because of this, parents should take great care in not
> making misleading statements or using "sleeping" as a euphemism.

Emphatically! That's a recipe for nightmares, literally--or more likely, a
refusal to go to bed at night.

> But still, they just aren't going to get it.

No, they won't.

--
4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse, AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons,
Bondage-happy predator, Speaker-To-Students, SadoMangoist,
AFPMistress to peachy, 8'FED's AFPDeliciousSnack, AFPFiance to A.
Nevill , Graycat's Guttersnipe
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286768 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 00:15
Flesh-eating Dragon  
peachy ashie passion wrote:
> 8'FED wrote:
>> peachy ashie passion wrote:

>>> Honestly Adrian, I have no idea of your meaning there.
>>
>> That responsible parents teach their children about death ... that
>> you're born, live, and die, and it doesn't last forever ... before
>> those children are five years old. Preschoolers will have plenty of
>> misconceptions of course, but by that age children should at least
>> know that death is permanent and that it comes to everyone.
>>
>> Common ways to educate young children about death (assuming that an
>> actual death of a friend or relative doesn't conveniently coincide
>> with the right point in the child's education) include answering
>> the child's questions about dead animals and explaining that people
>> die too, and visiting cemeteries and explaining what the headstones
>> mean.
>
> ahhh. I now at least understand your meaning.
>
> Thank you for elaborating.
>
> I disagree with your basic premise, as most preschoolers lack the
> developmental capacity to understand that death is permanent, regardless of
> what parents say.
>
> That said, because of this, parents should take great care in not making
> misleading statements or using "sleeping" as a euphemism.
>
> But still, they just aren't going to get it.

Here is a story which according to my parents is true.

When we were living in Scotland, my grandparents came from Australia
to visit, and I was very distraught when they left, and then later
they visited a second time, and I was very surprised. I was three or
four years old at the time, and explained to my parents that the
reason I was so surprised to see my grandparents again was because I
had believed that when people departed by aeroplane they "went dead".

Now, obviously I had a lot of misconceptions. But it's clear from this
anecdote that, at 3-4 years old, I understood that there's more to
dying than simply going away for a while, and that if someone dies,
you never expect to see them again.

I maintain that young children, properly educated, have more
understanding of death than you give them credit for.

Adrian.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286777 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 00:27
Flesh-eating Dragon  
Anastasia wrote:
> peachy ashie passion wrote:

>> I disagree with your basic premise, as most preschoolers lack the
>> developmental capacity to understand that death is permanent,
>> regardless of what parents say.
>
> Right. As I have said before, "true" understanding of the permanence of death,
> at the gut level, doesn't hit until the end of adolescence. Roughly speaking.

But if we're now talking about the gut level, that's a completely
different topic. Certainly young children don't associate the same
*emotional* tags with death that adults do (e.g. they don't translate
their knowledge of death and of their own mortality into a sense of
urgency about avoiding life-threatening situations), but the question
here is not about associating death with the right emotional tags, but
about *understanding* death. "Understanding death" refers to the
intellectual level of propositional knowledge rather than the gut
level of emotional knowledge.

Adrian.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286788 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 00:50
Peter Ellis  
8'FED wrote:
>
> When we were living in Scotland, my grandparents came from Australia
> to visit, and I was very distraught when they left, and then later
> they visited a second time, and I was very surprised. I was three or
> four years old at the time, and explained to my parents that the
> reason I was so surprised to see my grandparents again was because I
> had believed that when people departed by aeroplane they "went dead".

When I was little, I heard a program on the radio which included an
explanation of how to humanely kill a terminally ill goldfish. Apparently
you put them in water in the freezer, and that sends them into torpor so
they die painlessly. The quote was "It's just like having an anaesthetic".
Now, I had to have quite a lot of operations as a child, and was well used
to anaesthetics - so this confused the hell out of me. Eventually I decided
that the anaesthetic did kill you, but it was a special kind of death that
they brought you back from. And freaked out the nurse at my next operation
by asking whether it was time for me to die again.

Peter
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286792 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 00:55
April Goodwin-Smith  
"E.S." wrote ...
> April Goodwin-Smith wrote:
>> On the other hand, about 25 years ago I kept having dreams
>> that I was killing all my brothers and sisters (of which in RL
>> I have none), and blaming other people for the murders.
> <spooky voice>
> "You *had*... but they were all killed... by YOU!"
> <spooky voice ends>
>

I remembered the dream better later in the day - I was
murdering other people, and blaming the murders on my
brothers and sisters.

However - the first way is much better for the mwahahaha
factor, don't you think? :)

April.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286844 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 04:26
Rocky Frisco  
Torak wrote:

> When I was six I attended my (maternal) grandad's funeral. Well, the
> service and reception, anyway; we kids were dispatched to buy sweets
> with one of Mamma's friends during the actual interrment (spelling?).
> But still, we all knew exactly what was going on.
>
> Now, my Aunt and Uncle, on the other hand, actually *did* move to a farm
> in Cornwall. They have pigs, and make their own bacon. Which is nice.

Clarification: DoYC makes the piggies; A and U make the bacon, mostly by
using cutting instruments.

-Rocky
--
O'Toole's Corollary: Murphy was an optimist.
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286894 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 09:44
eero.suoranta  
Alec Cawley wrote:

> In article <1150017698.213323.6220 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> eero.suoranta [at] jtoy.inet.fi says...
>
> > To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, "sometimes a dream is just a dream."
>
> The only details I can remeber about last night's dream was pigs and
> giraffes climbing trees. The giraffes were quite good at it, but the
> pigs ended up getting stuck hanging under a branch by all four trotters.
>
> What does that say about my past and/or future?

<horrified stare>

Well... um... that's an interesting question...

<runs away from the obvious psychopath>
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #286958 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 14:48
Arthur Hagen  
Rocky Frisco <rocknatural [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> Torak wrote:
>
>> When I was six I attended my (maternal) grandad's funeral. Well, the
>> service and reception, anyway; we kids were dispatched to buy sweets
>> with one of Mamma's friends during the actual interrment (spelling?).
>> But still, we all knew exactly what was going on.
>>
>> Now, my Aunt and Uncle, on the other hand, actually *did* move to a
>> farm in Cornwall. They have pigs, and make their own bacon. Which is
>> nice.
>
> Clarification: DoYC makes the piggies; A and U make the bacon, mostly
> by using cutting instruments.

Like the new Moog, you mean?

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #287048 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 19:01
Torak  
Arthur Hagen wrote:
> Rocky Frisco <rocknatural [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Clarification: DoYC makes the piggies; A and U make the bacon, mostly
>> by using cutting instruments.
>
> Like the new Moog, you mean?

Same as the old Moog?
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #287165 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 23:41
Arthur Hagen  
Torak <perry_awm [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arthur Hagen wrote:
>> Rocky Frisco <rocknatural [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Clarification: DoYC makes the piggies; A and U make the bacon,
>>> mostly by using cutting instruments.
>>
>> Like the new Moog, you mean?
>
> Same as the old Moog?

Dunno. It'll hit the streets in a few weeks (unless it's delayed again),
and I'm holding my penies until I see a review or three. They've given it a
decidedly un-cool name -- "Little Phatty" might have sounded phun in the
late 90's -- so I surely hope it sounds better than it's named.

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] DEATH dreams [message #287198 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 00:53
Torak  
Arthur Hagen wrote:
> Torak <perry_awm [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Arthur Hagen wrote:
>>>
>>> Like the new Moog, you mean?
>>
>> Same as the old Moog?
>
> Dunno. It'll hit the streets in a few weeks (unless it's delayed
> again), and I'm holding my penies until I see a review or three.

Um... holding your *what*?

No, sorry, never mind. I've spent the last day listening to my sister's
student-type jokes. Forget I said anything.

> They've given it a decidedly un-cool name -- "Little Phatty" might have
> sounded phun in the late 90's -- so I surely hope it sounds better than
> it's named.

You're right, that sounds really rubbish.

A bit disappointed that nobody seemed to notice my little music
reference, though. Particularly since it ties in so nicely with the "Who
are you" thread.

Ah well.
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